We start this season of International Horizons with an interview with Dr. Eli Karetny, an American political scientist and administrative director of the Ralph Bunche Institute who spent the last academic year in Israel with his family. The plan was to do research on the Israeli Bedouin in the Negev desert – until the Hamas attacks of October 7 upset those plans. Karetny begins by discussing the changing moods of the Israeli population and the fading of internal divisions after the October 7th attacks in the midst of evacuations and drills. Karetny describes a highly militarized society that more recently has been worried about the expected retaliation from Iran and the possibility of escalation of conflict in the region. 

Finally, Karetny discusses the problematic situation of the Bedouins and how the hopes for reconciliation between the Bedouin and Israeli society have been diminished by the Jewish-Arab polarization during the Israeli-Hamas war.

Transcript

John Torpey 

The war between Hamas and Israel drags on approaching an entire year of bloody and horrifying conflict since Hamas attacked and killed 1200 Israeli Jews on October 7, 2023.  Israeli response has resulted in the deaths of an estimated 40,000 Palestinians to displacement, destruction and desperation for the survivors, and exacerbated tensions throughout the region. The US Secretary of State, Antony Blinken has been speaking in ominous tones of late, suggesting time is running out for the achievement of a ceasefire, the fate of the Israeli hostages of a possible wider war, and of Palestinian aspirations for self determination hang in the balance, but we hear relatively little about how ordinary Israelis and Palestinians are experiencing life under these circumstances. How do things look on the ground in Israel over the past months? My name is John Torpey, and I’m director of the Ralph Bunche Institute for International Studies at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. Welcome to International Horizons, a podcast of the Ralph Bunche Institute that brings scholarly and diplomatic expertise to bear on our understanding of a wide range of international issues. We’re fortunate to have with us today Eli Karetny, the Administrative Director of the Ralph Bunche Institute for International Studies. As fate would have it, Eli and his family spent the past year living and working in the Negev, in the Negev desert, a relatively remote area of Israel, roughly on a parallel with Petra, in neighboring Jordan, the famous ancient city. Eli grew up in Philadelphia as the firstborn son of Ukrainian immigrants. After receiving a combined JD/MBA from Temple University, he joined the Peace Corps and served in Ukraine. He then did a Master’s in International Relations at NYU and completed his PhD in Political Theory here at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York under the direction of the political theorist Corey Robin. In addition to his role as Administrative Director of the Ralph Bunche Institute, Eli teaches Political Theory and International Relations at Baruch College. While living in the Negev this past year, he also worked on a research project about the Negev Bedouin which informs his thinking about his experience there in the past year. Thanks so much for joining us today Eli Karetny.

Eli Karetny 

Thanks, John. And I really appreciate you having me on the podcast. Look forward to…

John Torpey 

Yeah, no, I really look forward to hearing about your experience, which is very unusual kind of situation for somebody with your, you know, academic background as well. So maybe, just to get things started, and as a sort of reminder of what we might call the before times, maybe we could start by asking you to tell us how you found life in Israel before October 7th of last year. That is, of course, before the Hamas attacks.

Eli Karetny 

Thanks John. So our family was living in a town called Mitzpe Ramon in the Negev desert, as you say. It’s a region of the Negev called the Negev Highlands, about 100 kilometers from, from Gaza, about the same from Beersheba, and maybe double that from Eilot in the south. But it’s a very remote region, a remote town elevated on a plateau, strong winds, you know, strong desert environment. This is a just to kind of set the kind of the stage in terms of where we were in the country. The stretch of the Negev from, from Beersheba to Mitzpe Ramonis heavily populated, with Bedouin villages, seven towns that were built by the Israeli government, 35 unrecognized villages, and 10 recently recognized villages, and I’ll have a little more to say about the situation with the Bedouin later on. Mitzpe, Mitzpe Ramon is about 30 kilometers away from Ramon Airbase. There are IDF training grounds all throughout the Negev so that kind of, you know, once the once things got, get started with the war, that really frames our family’s experience living in Mitzpe, which was a kind of unique experience, different from how Israelis throughout the rest of the country, you know, we’re experiencing the war. But I’ll have a little more to say about that. But in terms of your question, before October 7, as you may remember, there were already a lot of divisions and tensions in Israeli society really bubbling to a kind of crisis point. There were, there was this judicial reform proposal, quote, unquote, judicial reform proposal, which really triggered very intense divisions within Israeli society, and they felt that they were kind of bubbling to a potential breaking point. There was kind of loose talk of things potentially becoming violent, a kind of civil war atmosphere, which I think was exaggerated, and yet the divisions were not just among the kind of political class and talking heads. This really was felt, you know, on the ground, a really kind of intense sense of division that had to do with the future of the country, the path the country was on. Had to do with the power of the courts, the power to declare laws unconstitutional. And this, this had people talking about, you know, kind of Israel, kind of finally and permanently losing its its kind of liberal and democratic character. So this feeling of deep changes, kind of brewing was already there before October 7th. And of course, October 7th heightened that literally, those tensions, or I should say, the crisis atmosphere literally exploded, and yet these pre war divisions seemed to disappear. So there was a sense of, kind of the country rallying together, you know, rallying around the flag in wartime, and these deep divisions, I wouldn’t say, maybe not disappearing, but kind of being pushed underground, or kind of like, you know, temporarily, kind of being pushed down by greater social pressures.

John Torpey 

Right. Right, it was a time of intense divisions, mass protests. I mean, it was a really big deal, and one wonders whether that wasn’t, didn’t play a role in Hamas’ thinking about when to undertake this attack. But in any case, perhaps you could tell us now about, you know, how you experienced the attack in on October 7.

Eli Karetny 

It was really quite intense. And I want to overstate this, because the way we experienced this was was not, of course, the way that the victims of the attack experienced it. And even though we were 100 miles, only 100 kilometers from Gaza, Mitzpe is isolated enough, it’s far enough where we didn’t have or within, within days of October 7, we had a sense that we weren’t in the direct line of fire that you know, that Hamas terrorists were not going to be patrolling, you know, or, you know, attacking our homes in Mitzpe, you know, we were surrounded, as I said, by various IDF bases, by Ramon Airbase, and there was a sense that we were remote enough or far enough from potential rocket fire, from from actual, you know, Hamas infiltrators, where we personally, our family, no longer felt this sense of immediate danger, but in the in the the day or two, you know, after the attack, that wasn’t the case, and there was a general sense of fear, even panic, throughout the community. It’s a very small community of only about 5000 people, and which which swelled to 8000 soon after the war because evacuees from the Otef, from from the kind of what’s called the Gaza Envelope, the surrounding kibbutzim and small Jewish villages on the Israel side of the border, but near Gaza, the ones that were, you know, directly threatened, attacked. The evacuees from those villages in kibbutzim, many of them were brought to parts of the country where things were were a bit safer, and our town, Mitzpe Ramon, accepted up to 3000 evacuees. So a small town of 5000 swelled to 8000 in the days and weeks after October 7th. I remember on the October 7 itself, that morning, waking up and kind of going outside in the desert, having my kind of morning walk, and feeling some something in the air, some kind of a bizarre sense of something’s different. I didn’t hear I didn’t hear gunfire, I didn’t hear rocket attacks, but I did start to hear jets buzzing overhead much more frequently than I had been hearing, you know, before October 7th. It’s, it’s a common occurrence because I said there’s IDF training grounds and the air base is nearby. So periodically, you do hear the, you know, artillery fire or jets overhead. But on October 7th, we started hearing it more and more, and kind of louder and more frequently, and I didn’t yet know what was going on. And I also saw, even before turning on the news and checking my my Twitter feed, and, you know, seeing, kind of figuring out what’s going on, I saw there’s right nearby, just a few blocks away there’s a a big Yeshivah, a Yeshivah is a religious school, a Jewish religious school, and it’s kind of the, the biggest structure in town, new and shiny, and a call to prayer every hour or two, and many, and the religious community in MitzpeRamon, a kind of growing religious community, and an increasingly kind of influential religious community. Something that I hadn’t noticed before October 7th was that early morning prayers, you saw the Jewish men in the prayer shawl walking the streets, but now they had a rifle, you know, hanging over their prayer shawl, and that was a bizarre thing for me. I hadn’t, I hadn’t seen that very much, and that was a sign of things to come, because from then on, in the coming weeks and months, seeing armed men, armed civilian men all throughout the streets in various towns, but I can really speak best about what was happening in Mizpe Ramon, this was, this was a, you know, a common site, something that we all got used to. The kids got used to. The kids friends there, you know, we went on hikes on the weekends, their parents, the fathers of my kids’ friends, would be carrying rifles. Going to coffee shops to get some work done, I saw rifles everywhere. And again, this is not just uniformed IDFsoldiers. This is like, this is civilians, armed civilians. And that was a kind of very worrisome sign, you know, not only about what is this crisis that’s happening, but also a sense of, like, there’s a new normal, like there’s something changing in our in our local community, and more broadly. Because, you know, my partner, my wife, Tali, is Israeli, she grew up in Israel. So every summer, when we come back, you know, we’re kind of, we’re part of the community. She has many, many friends and family, both locally and throughout the country. So we also have a kind of tapped into what’s happening in different parts of the country. And this was, this was a trend, not only in our community, but throughout the country, the sense of militarization, beyond, you know, it’s often said among critics of Israel that it’s already an incredibly militarized society, and there’s truth to that, but there was a real qualitative change after October 7th, and that remains the case. You know, my kids got used to seeing rifles everywhere, and that’s a bizarre kind of thing. So, so just to you know, there was a sense of fear in the air immediately after October 7, but of kind of fear for us that was not immediate fear for our lives, which was the case throughout the rest of the country. Because there’s a, there’s, there’s a kind of siren system. And this is something all Israelis get used to. Tali grew up with this, you know. Scud missiles coming from Iraq in the 90s, and the sirens would blast, and all Israelis would go into their Mamad, that’s a safe room. And all, all dwellings, by law, are required to have a concrete safe room. Dwellings built before that law was passed may not have such a Mamad, but, but all communities are all all, not just communities, all kind of neighborhoods need to have such a safe room within a certain close distance, so that when you know threats of rocket fire people can can find shelter in their safe room. So, so this is something Israelis, you know, kind of a tragic part of life growing up in Israel, but the that siren system, soon after October 7th, was being triggered constantly. So friends and family throughout the country were dealing with this on a daily basis. Every few hours of silence, sirens would go, you’d hear alarms just like blasting throughout the town or the city where you are and everyone goes into their safe room. There’s an emergency alert system, an app on the phone which does this now in a more precise way than in the past. So it’s kind of community by community, and it has to do with, you know, it’s connected to the Iron Dome, and it’s connected to where rocket fire, you know, is targeting, and those villages or towns or nearby, you know, communities that are being targeted by rocket fire, or under threat by rocket fire, the sirens blast, and everyone goes into the safe room. So that was happening throughout the country, in the North, in the center, and even in the deep South, further south than us, in like, you know, the border in a lot this was happening, but this was a little bit further on, I think, when the Houthis started to get involved in the conflict is when things started to kind of heat up in a lot. But it was mostly an issue is terms of direct threats was the Otef, the villages in kibbutzim surrounding Gaza, or within kind of, you know, the kind of crude rocket fire within a short distance of Gaza or in the far North, near the border with Lebanon, constant rocket fire coming from Hezbollah. And then, of course, the center also even Tel Aviv and some central regions, periodically, after October 7th, or soon after October 7th, we’re also experiencing these sirens and this kind of daily, daily dance where you’re coming in and out of the safe room. We didn’t have that in Mitzpe,ever. There was one instance of the siren going off a day after on October 8th, and this was like a false alarm. Wasn’t clear if it was a dry run or a practice run or a technology glitch, just don’t know, but everyone’s app in MitzpeRamon went off, everyone ran to their safe room. It’s a desert town, many of the structures were built before this law was passed requiring that all dwellings have a safe room. So our home, where we were living, we were renting, didn’t have a safe room, but we had made arrangements on October 7th with our neighbor, and she gave us a key to her house that if a siren goes off, you can come into my home and use our safe room. So that was the arrangement that we made. We packed bags, kept bags in her safe room. And in the days and weeks following October 7th, we were kind of waiting for what we thought was inevitable, you know, rocket fire in our area, sirens going off, you know, but it never happened. So Mitzpe remained a kind of, this kind of relative, a safe bubble within a broader region of the country, and it kind of in the country itself that was very much under, you know, more more direct threat.

John Torpey 

Right. So, I mean, obviously this is a major kind of concern if you’re there with a family and you have little kids, and so I’m curious. I mean, I’m concerned about time, but I sort of want to ask you, you know, how would you say this has affected your kids in particular? I mean, obviously they’re not enduring the kind of bombardment that’s been taking place in Gaza itself, where many, many children have been killed. But you know, you talked about the fear that you experienced, and you know, what do you think that’s like for these kids who are, I’ve forgotten exactly now, eight, six and eight, eight and 10?

Eli Karetny 

No, uh, Nomi is 12. I’m sorry, Nomi just turned 13 this weekend. 13. Yeah, right. I have a teenage daughter. Uh, Nomi is 13, and Mayan is nine, and they experienced these things in slightly different ways. Soon, I should say, we shield them generally, from kind of, you know, intense political talk, and politics of the Middle East is always intense. So this is not to say that these issues aren’t addressed in a kind of age appropriate way, but we’re not talking about these topics at the dinner table on a day to day basis. That said they have a sense of what’s going on. We go every summer, they have friends in the Bedouin community. They have a sense of some of the tensions between Jews and Arabs inside Israel and in the region. But as I said, not not dinner table talk, but as much as we try to, you know, deal with these issues in an age appropriate way, when you’re there and these things are in the air, you know, their friends at school are talking about these things. That, as I mentioned, they see rifles on our weekend hikes, they see rifles, you know, at the coffee shop and just walking the street, going to, you know, Nomi and Maya on both they’re going to our, the local market, to, you know, to get snacks, and you know, people passing by are armed. And their experience of that was not easy to characterize, but we had some discussions about it. Mayan, I remember, Mayan telling me, is my nine year old son, on the way to school one morning, that this must be something he heard from friends at school, that seeing all the rifles made him feel safe, because it’s my people there to protect me. Nomi, right away jumped in, is like: “Safe? Are you nuts?” She’s like, they make me feel anxious, they make me feel afraid, I feel constantly, you know, worried. So just the sight of rifles on a day to day basis, triggered different kind of emotional reactions for the two of them. Over time, Nomi’s anxieties, you know, you get used to it. She would, she would tell me, it’s something that doesn’t make me feel comfortable, but I just got used to it, right? So that, that’s a thing, you know, that’s the thing that we had to deal with all year long, young kids who are getting used to a kind of an increasingly militarized culture, and the talk among friends is not pleasant talk, especially the older kids, you know. Nomi’s friends, who we like to think of, coming from enlightened liberal homes, you know, are rallying around the flag and talking about a war atmosphere and talking about their fears, and talking about the enemy, and talking about the enemy in harsh and sometimes ugly ways. And that was very, very difficult to hear. So, none of that kind of as far as I my, far as I know, none of that penetrated into my into the kind of minds and hearts of my kids, but, but this is the this is the talk in the community, when you’re afraid you want to be protected, and even if your parents, and friends of your parents are critics of the government or critics of Bibi, you know, in wartime, people want to be protected. And that was that very much shaped my kids experience in the immediate aftermath of the war. That started to change within months, because in our home, and I wish this was the case in other homes in our area, but certainly in our home, there was a lot of talk about what was happening in Gaza, and in the horrors in Gaza and the IDFs, you know, reaction, overreaction, maybe in Gaza. No other families were talking that way, mostly because the news was not providing those stories. You know, there really is, and this was one of my big learning lessons, the media propaganda is strong. There’s an emphasis on certain kinds of stories, and there’s an omission of other kinds of stories. So day to day news and Israelis are news consumers. Day to day news, you know, on the major media, TV news, you know, web news, newspapers, is emphasizing stories about the hostages everywhere, throughout every kind of town square, there’s images, big posters of the hostages, their stories of, you know, soldiers, tragic stories of soldiers dying in Gaza. And everybody knows somebody who’s called into service. You know, all Israeli citizens serve in the IDF and remain, maintain some kind of, you know, connection with the IDF, whether there’s kind of in reserves or their kids are now serving, or, you know, cousins, uncles, nephews, nieces, everyone is somehow connected to what’s happening in the military, which is so different from American society. I’ve never known anybody who served in the American army or any of the armed forces. And in Israel, every single Israeli I know, and I know many because I said my wife’s Israeli, served in the IDF. So even among those who are harsh critics of Bibi, for example, or certainly of the Ben-Gvir faction, I never met one person in a year there who was a supporter of Ben-Gvir. And even all the kind of centrist, left of center critics of Bibi in wartime, those criticisms get pushed away.

John Torpey 

Politics stops at the water’s edge.

Eli Karetny 

That’s right, that’s right, really. And, you know, one thing is learning about these things from textbooks or in lectures. And, you know, but there’s another thing, and from a distance, you know, another thing is learning these things on the ground, really seeing it in the air. And that was, that was enlightening, and also very sad to put a fine point on it. So, so, yeah, so the kids, the kids got used to it, and yet, you know, they were living with war in the air for a year. And even though that might not have meant immediate fear for their, you know, for their security, after a time, there was still a sense of, like living, living in wartime, and that does something to you.

John Torpey 

I’m sure it does. So, you just really came back a couple of weeks ago, I guess now. And so you really got out just as the tensions with Iran and Hezbollah were rising, and there was concern about a widening of the war. There have been exchanges in both directions across the northern border, and some airlines stopped flying in or out of of Israel. So you got out, in some sense, just before that opportunity was foreclosed, I mean, I don’t know whether it’s reopened or not. But, so maybe you could tell us, you know, what was the sense of things, you know, in the last days before you left? And you know, as I mentioned in the introduction, there, Antony Blinken has been sort of talking about, there’s been some sense that maybe a ceasefire is reachable. But I can’t say I read Blinken’s comments as being very optimistic about that. And he seems to be saying, you know, time is running out, and if that time runs out, you know, very little is going to be achieved for the foreseeable future. So I’m curious, you know, how you read that situation, what it was like as you left.

Eli Karetny 

A few things I want to say in response to that, in terms of the kind of the challenges with, with getting out of the country, and with with flights and things like that, you know, we made it out just in time. And this was, this really was an issue, because in we came was the last day of July. We’ve been back now for three weeks or so. So again, it was July 29th we were flying out, and this was, really wasn’t, and still remains a time when we were everyone’s just waiting for the Iranian response. Waiting for escalations from Hezbollah. So, literally, a sense of, like, of any moment something, something big is about to happen. And this was round two. I mean, there’s been many, many rounds, you know, since October 7th, but round two of waiting for the Iranian response. And if you remember, round one was mid April, and there the response was a set was almost telegraphed. It was, of course, a serious response, but it was a response that was communicated from the Iranians. It was expected, almost to the hour, when it was going to come. And this was a really bizarre situation to be living in Israel, waiting to be bombed, like waiting for bombs to fall, because you know what’s coming, and you know within a day or two of when it’s going to be coming. And that was just strange, more than strange. That was scary and strange and unsettling, but, but the way it played out in mid April didn’t prepare people for the way it’s playing out now, maybe. Because the Iranians are not telegraphing their response in quite the same way. There’s been a long delay. Now, it’s been weeks and weeks and still no response. Not clear what the nature of that response is going to be other than the fact that it’s going to be an escalation. But now we have several weeks of observing this like round two response. But in response to your question, mid July, and towards the end of July, as we were planning our exit, as we were leaving, we didn’t, we thought it was going to be something like the round one Iranian response. So there was a feeling of, like waiting for the bombs to fall. And of course, that was scary, and we were looking to get out just in time. And we did. But as we were leaving, you know, airlines are responding to the same sense of like, you know, expecting any minute, the Iranian response. So flights were being canceled, and that we’re still inside of that. You know, it’s been three weeks, but we’re all still waiting for the response. And in terms of airline by airline, they’ve made their own decisions. I think some have announced no, no flights into Israel, and for a few weeks. Think some announced that, and then pulled back and it resumed some flights. But this is a kind of case by case basis, but there’s still this sense of a response coming, and not just a response doing something because you have to respond. A sense of like the conflict that Israel is in, that is, maybe, an escalation is coming. And that sits in stark contrast to the hopes we all have for a ceasefire in Gaza. So, somehow these things are happening at the same time. This like hope and expectation that the situation in Gaza is gonna stop. Stop for time, stop permanently, but nobody has any feeling that that ceasefire if and when it comes. And I think like you’re suggesting, many of us are not as hopeful as we were just some weeks ago. Some indications are that you know it’s going to continue to fail, whether you blame Bibi or blame Sinwar, lots of blame on both sides for why these ceasefires aren’t happening. But even if the ceasefires, if we can get a ceasefire, there isn’t a sense that among anybody I’ve spoken to that that will be lead to some kind of long term and durable, kind of stable situation where real rebuilding and reconciliation can begin to take place. In fact, the sense is that once there’s a ceasefire, all efforts shift to the north, and that’s where the war we’ve got with with his beloved begins. So my feeling and my fear is that, you know, one war ends, one one smallish war, if I can put it that way, not to to minimize the horrific tragedy of what’s happening to Gazans, to Palestinians in Gaza. But when that conflict does come to an end, there’s a sense that maybe something bigger is going to erupt, and Hezbollah and Hamas, it’s these are not the same entities in terms of, you know, military might, so, so that’s, that’s a big fear for me, is that even if there is a ceasefire, you know, then the next war starts.

John Torpey 

Well. So those are your fears. What are your hopes and aspirations for the people of Israel, the Palestinians, the region?

Eli Karetny 

Hopes? I mean, I, I want to have realistic hopes, you know. Some, some of my hopes, I haven’t mentioned anything about the Bedouin community, but I should say something about that, because there, there are, kind of, there is a space for hope, I think, in terms of relations between the Jewish community and the Bedouin community in the Negev. And we don’t have much time, so I can’t really get into the details of what’s happening in the Bedouin community. But Bedouin are Arabs, Arab Israeli citizens, mostly living in the Negev, many of them living in unrecognized villages, really harsh conditions. And it’s been a bad situation for a long time for them, but there were these moments of hope, if I could put it that way, even immediately after October 7th, because the Bedouin community, who are Palestinian Arabs, they are Muslim Arabs, but they are primarily Bedouin In terms of their own self identity. And they are opposed to Hamas. They’re opposed to radical Islam. And they want recognition for their villages as Israeli citizens, seeking, you know, seeking their basic rights, the basic rights of citizenship. And there, there were some moments of hope immediately after October 7th, because there were instances, one of Bedouins themselves were victims of Hamas, the Hamas’ attacks, but also because the Bedouin were being portrayed differently in the media. They weren’t being portrayed as criminals or squatters or invaders, but they were being portrayed correctly, as Israeli citizens, who are also victims. And there was some, some hope for a reconciliation among Jews and Bedouins in the Negev. But soon, even that disappeared. Soon, you know, the Ben-Gvir faction was asserting power even in the Negev, demolitions were increasing among the kind of religious communities. It felt like discrimination was, was intensifying. The Bedouin, despite being Israeli citizens, were being kind of thrown into the camp with all Arabs, you know, as if this is all about, you know, the war between Jews and Arabs and the religious right. Presenting it that way really kind of muddies the waters. So even in the, I mentioned this, because this is an area where I really saw some hope for a time. But even those hopes are diminishing in the broader context of a kind of wartime atmosphere. And it’s a wartime atmosphere that, to me, and to many people who are more knowledgeable in terms of the kind of the history and the kind of some of the politics of the Middle East, the wartime atmosphere is at the level of some of the other real historic, you know, crisis. 48, 67 73, the big wars you know, this doesn’t have the feeling of, I hate this phrase, but I you know this kind of, this, this periodic, what they call mowing the lawn operations in Gaza, as the threat builds, you come in and kind of, like, decimate the threat. And then it kind of, you know, mobilizes again, or kind of rebuilds, and then, you know, this periodic mowing of lawn, which are kind of, again, horrific, and those are very real catastrophes, but, there’s a difference in scale with the kind of the major wars in Israel’s history. And the sense in society is that, that this war is, is on, is on par with the major wars. So in terms of hopes, you know, short term and medium term, it’s hard to find hope. Long term, I point to a few things. I point to just kind of, quote, unquote, normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel, which is not yet a kind of an official or legal or kind of fact, but, but it’s actually happening in terms of security cooperation, intelligence sharing, in terms of a recognition of a common, a common threat from Iran and the Iranian axis, there is a sense of fundamentally transformed relations that are possible between Israel and Saudi Arabia, and maybe more broadly speaking, the Arab world. So there’s hopes there, but those are hopes that are tainted by this sense of common enemy, wartime, security competition is still framed. There’s a kind of, you know, the narrative overhanging normalization is a kind of, is a security atmosphere and not a kind of deeper reconciliation. And then that’s not my view as much as that’s me kind of relaying a general view among many informed Israelis. I have my own hope fantasies about, you know, a long term peace between Israel and Iran. Because, you know, my sense is that the Iranian people and the Israel and Israelis, they’re kind of natural friends. There’s a kind of, I think there’s a deep bond that’s possible, and the governments are preventing that from being realized. You know, that’s a longer conversation, and again, I don’t have the kind of historical expertise to back that up. But my, if I can speak about hopes in a broader sense, kind of fantasy of a kind of some kind of regime change in both places, so that the people can have their will, and there could be a kind of long term enduring peace between Israelis and Iranians. But not much to back that up at the moment.

John Torpey 

Well, these are in the realm of hopes and perhaps, alas, fantasies, but definitely something to work towards and to hope for. So thanks very much for taking the time to talk to us today, Eli Karetny, thanks for your insights about the situation in Israel Palestine during the past year where you lived there. I also want to thank Claire Centofanti, our new producer, for her direct technical assistance, and to acknowledge Duncan McKay for letting us use his song International Horizons as the theme music for the show. This is John Torpey saying, thanks for joining us, and we look forward to having you with us for the next episode of International Horizons.