Wojtek Soczewica has led the Auschwitz-Birkenau Foundation since 2019, near the site of the killing fields. The Foundation aims at the preservation of the remains of the concentration and extermination camp and of all the personal items that belonged to victims and survivors. Today they serve as material witnesses of the tragic history safeguarding “the place of Auschwitz in human memory.” In this episode of International Horizons, he speaks with John Torpey, director of the Ralph Bunche Institute, about the work of the Foundation and its role not only in contemporary Poland but in today’s turmoil. He reflects on the role of memorials and museums and how they serve as mirrors to help us to ask ourselves the difficult questions. Additionally, Soczewica attempts an answer concerning the relationship between politics and history.

John Torpey 

At least in the West, Auschwitz has come to symbolize the worst treatment of human beings by their fellow man and woman. Yet the survivors of Auschwitz in the Holocaust more generally are gradually passing from the scene. What was their suffering leave behind? What does it mean today in an historical context in which the Holocaust is being used by some as a justification for the mass slaughter of Palestinians. My name is John Torpey, and I’m director of the Ralph Bunche Institute for International Studies at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. Welcome to International Horizons, a podcast with the Ralph Bunche institute that brings scholarly and diplomatic expertise to bear on our understanding of a wide range of international issues. We are fortunate to have with us today Wojciech Soczewica, who has been director general of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Foundation since January 2019.  He is a graduate of the Institute of International Relations at the University of Warsaw and of the Diplomatic Academy of the Polish Ministry of Foreign Affairs.  Previously, Mr. Soczewica served as Deputy Director for International Affairs at Warsaw City Hall.  During 2013-2015, he was director of the International Cooperation Team in the Office of the Polish Commissioner for Human Rights. Thanks so much for joining us, Wojciech Soczewica.

Wojciech Soczewica 

Thank you very much for having me. Thank you.

John Torpey 

Great to have you.

Wojciech Soczewica 

It’s an honor.

John Torpey 

Well, thank you. So, perhaps you could begin by telling us what the Auschwitz-Birkenau foundation is and what it does, and we can sort of work our way out from there. So, what is the foundation do?

Wojciech Soczewica 

Historically, the foundation has been established almost 15 years ago as a reaction to the urgent need to save the remains on site which means the whole post-camp infrastructure as it was left behind, in 1945, upon the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau. We were talking about 45 brick barracks, original brick barracks, we are talking about many wooden structures, wooden barracks also. But at the same time of ruins, for example of gas chambers and crematoriums, which are evidence of the crimes of Auschwitz-Birkenau, and it was the intention of the memorial and of the survivors, who have been with us, and I always try to mention that it was survivors who established the Auschwitz-Birkenau memorial in 1947. It was them who came back after World War II to take care of the remains so that nothing will be forgotten. And as I said, the Foundation was established 15 years ago, with one central purpose to support the Auschwitz Memorial by raising funds, which are then invested by the Foundation and the returns annually go to the preservation program of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Museum and memorial. It’s a Polish cultural institution by law, which means that it’s run by the Ministry of Culture and it appoints a director and there is a team of almost 400 employees, plus another 350 to 400 guides. And they take care of memory, they take care of as I said the remains, which are not only the infrastructure of the camp, but also in most cases, and I dare say that this is becoming more and more important, of personal items of victims and survivors. So, material witnesses as we call them, because in most cases, we don’t know whom these eyeglasses, shoes, letters, clothing, and so on, belonged to, most of them obviously don’t have names on them, some do. Even now, almost eight years after deliberation, the conservators team it happens that they discover names or items that allow us to connect the personal items to families or, or individuals, but in most cases obviously, we have for example, 100,000 shoes of former prisoners, in most cases we don’t have any clue whom they belonged to. So, these items are material witnesses, they have a very tragic history, but they also tell the history of life. Before people were deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau, they had a life in Europe and that’s why it’s so central for us, my generation, to save these items, because they do tell a story, a tragic story. And in most cases, as I said, they might be the only object which remains from the life of these people in most cases, over 1 million Eastern European Jews. But also there has been also other victims. The camp was built for Polish political prisoners, that were of course, lots of 1000s of Soviet prisoners of war, Roma and Sinti and other ethnic and national groups. So, these items, they are carrying the memory and a very difficult and painful memory. But it is our generation’s task to save these items. And now, I’m going back to the beginning of my response, the Auschwitz-Birkenau Foundation was established by Wladyslaw Bartoszewski, who was an Auschwitz survivor himself, he was foreign minister twice in free independent Poland, and it was his central I think he saw it as his central assignment or lifetime mission to save from forgetting. He was behind establishing the foundation, he founded the Foundation, there were young people behind starting the enterprise. And it is my generation’s job to take care of these things, so that we never forget. That is important not only because this has been, Auschwitz-Birkenau, is the symbol of the worst crimes in human history, industrialized killing, not only on a massive scale, but also the most cruel scale and way but also, because Auschwitz- Birkenau, unfortunately, is not the only Memorial which tells this tragic, tragic history in today’s Poland, but it is certainly the symbol of the Shoah and the crimes against Europe Jews worldwide. So, there is a special responsibility on our shoulders. And that is also one of the reasons why so many people are coming annually, to visit, to see with their own eyes, and we’re speaking about more or less 2 million people, the numbers have been a bit different. They have gone down obviously, during the COVID crisis. But now, for the past few years, visitors’ numbers have been climbing very quickly. You can always ask why, what the reason for that is. I suppose there are many reasons. But for us, it’s important that people come, they want to visit, they want to spend time, lots of time an average visit with a guide is 3 1/2 to 4 hours. And the readiness of people to confront themselves with this painful history is, I think, an important mission for the memorial, but also for the Foundation and us making sure that the funds are there. That’s the wonderful preservation team at Auschwitz- Birkenau, and we have experts who are the best in the world to deal with wood, with brick stone, with glass, with paper, with plastic…almost 40 people, professionals preserving on a daily basis, us making sure that they can do their job in a professional way is part of this historic, I think, mission.

John Torpey 

I see. So, I’m glad you brought up the issue of visitors. Because I’m sort of curious, who are they exactly? I mean, I don’t know if you keep track of this sort of thing. But I’m curious, because I’ve done some scholarly work in this general area myself and was once in China in Nanjing and visited the museum of what we call The Rape of Nanking or Nanjing and it was, let’s say it commemorated things in ways that were very different, I think, from the way we would have done that. But in any case, it’s also, I think, not as salient in East Asia, let’s say I mean, what you’re talking about, but when you’re talking about the extermination of the European Jews, it doesn’t have the same status as it does for us. So, I’m curious, what can you say about the background of the visitors?

Wojciech Soczewica 

So, if we look at the general numbers, let’s say it is around 2 million people, the biggest number is obviously, Polish visitors. Most of them are school groups, because in most cases, schools have the opportunity to visit Auschwitz- Birkenau at a certain age; It’s in the, in the curricula of schools, mostly history classes. But apart from the Polish groups, it’s, we’re tracking, of course, the numbers and the traditionally the biggest numbers are coming from the United Kingdom, which has a wonderful Holocaust educational program, and they are bringing around 100 to 200,000 people, young people, annually to visit Auschwitz-Birkenau with educational programs, which is you know, they are well prepared, the summarize the visits, so they really study in depth, the history of the extermination of European Jews. Then there is a big number coming from France, Spain, Italy, Israel, of course, it’s always among the top 10. When it comes to visitors’ numbers, the US is also among the top 10 11 12. Sometimes it differs, but it’s one of the top nations. Then, of course, from the region, the Czech Republic, it’s close nearby, we’re bordering the Czech Republic. So, Germany too. You mentioned Asia, which is very interesting, and the numbers from particularly Japan and Korea are growing. And this is very interesting, obviously, when you think of tourists coming traditionally, from the Far East, Auschwitz- Birkenau may not be one of the top choices. When we think about that, it turns out that perhaps because of the crimes during World War II, there is some similarity, and that might be one of the reasons why people want to understand the history of Europe, why it happened, that this continent was dominated by an ideology, which allowed for the killing of one of its groups, one of the best developed and highest developed civilizations introduced techniques and policies which led to the Holocaust.  So, it’s certainly it is a lens, Auschwitz-Birkenau, I think, I’m confident is the lens, which allows to try to understand what had happened here on this continent, and how it was possible that one of the best developed civilizations introduced on an industrial scale the killing, and was trying to improve these killing methods. This is something that is incredible and I think it’s touching, even now, or even more, now, 80 years after the crimes, when you imagine that many companies, German companies, were involved in this crime and this was a money-making mechanism, right? They were earning money with selling Cyclone V, with providing furnaces to the site, not only Auschwitz-Birkenau, but in this case, we’re talking about this killing camp. They were earning money first and then they were trying to make this process more and more efficient, which is surprising, given the nature of the crimes. And, when we look exactly at the level of civilization and culture in the 30s in Europe and 40s, that these were people who claimed to be civilized and cultured, and they loved music, classical music, and they were reading poetry. And then you find out that there was an excellent team of historians at Auschwitz-Birkenau really studying this topic for many, many decades. So there was never enough time to spend, never enough time for Auschwitz, these standard tours, which lasts 3 1/2 to 4 hours…it’s long, but it’s never enough.  It’s interesting when you dig up facts from history and details from history, and when you look at the motivation of some companies, which were for example, in charge of providing furnaces to the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration and extermination camp, it turns out that there were regular visits of engineers who were coming from a company named Topf und Söhne (Topf and sons) which was in charge of developing efficient mechanisms of burning as many as possible human bodies, to get rid of the evidence and to get rid of human beings. So, history is full of cruelty of course, because we are cruel creatures, but this I think, is one of the levels which demonstrates that as soon as we slide into dehumanization, there is very little that can stop us. And and still Auschwitz-Birkenau is evidence of the worst in us. I think that this is also, to conclude, this is also a very good reason why it’s necessary to allow people to visit these places and to give them a platform to critically think about our role today from the perspective of the past, because it’s a mirror, it’s something that human beings were capable of and what they did to other human beings. That’s why I think it is very reasonable to look at these horrible examples from history from a perspective of today and try to think, what is our role in 2024? What can we do to fight hatred, antisemitism? What can we do to fight indifference, if we see cases of indifference discrimination on our streets here in Warsaw, in New York City, in Washington, Buenos Aires? wherever we you are from, there is always something we can do and I think that this is the central role of memorials like Auschwitz- Birkenau, to give us the opportunity to look at ourselves. That doesn’t mean that we’re all cruel as as the Nazis were at Auschwitz-Birkenau, but it means that the human being is capable of cruelty and by looking into this mirror, we have the opportunity or even the obligation to think about our role in our societies.

John Torpey 

Indeed, and you mentioned, at some point previously, that the Auschwitz-Birkenau Foundation is a part of the Ministry of Culture, it’s under the jurisdiction, if that’s the right word, of the Ministry of Culture of Poland. And so, I don’t have to tell you that this has been a complicated matter in recent Polish politics. Basically, Poland is seen as kind of both a victim and a perpetrator for reasons having to do with the history of World War II and I wonder if you could say a little bit about where that discussion stands, I mean, a tendency to want to exonerate Poland has been more strongly associated with conservative politicians and regimes. So, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about where things stand around that debate in contemporary Poland?

Wojciech Soczewica 

Thank you very much. This is indeed a very difficult question because it touches so many emotions, and it’s painful. I’m sure, for example, Jews who are survivors, or whose ancestors managed to leave Poland or this part of Europe before the outbreak of World War II but still have lost family victims because of the crimes of Nazi Germany here in this part of Europe, but before I go deeper into this topic, I would like to clarify one important thing. The Auschwitz-Birkenau Foundation is a totally independent entity, it is not only independent from the state of Poland, we are not part of the ministry, we are not part of any government, we are 100% fully independent. That was one of the most important preconditions when the Foundation was established, because its founders knew that in order to fulfill its mission the Foundation meets 100% independence, and in the future, no politicians should have any chance to intervene in our work. This has never happened. Luckily, I mean, I’ve been here for five years, my colleagues, some of them have been here longer and we never saw any efforts to influence our mission. Now, you can of course, say that when you’re in charge of preservation, there isn’t many, there isn’t much competence when it comes to politicians, many politicians think they’re experts in history, interpreting history, and this is certainly not only a case for Poland, so preservation is not something that politicians might find interesting and maybe this is one of the reasons why they have not intervened. We will see how the future will look because the Foundation has entered also education as a strategic field, recently was the development of the online platform for remote guided visits. We can speak about this later also. So, we shall see if there might be some interest from politics. I hope this will not be the case. But for now, there has never been an intervention, political intervention into what we do. So…

John Torpey 

Let me just quickly say I’m sorry if I misunderstood that. 

Wojciech Soczewica 

No, absolutely no problem. It’s just important to clarify that and we are of course, supporting the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, which is a state entity and it’s in our foundation mission to support the memorial. So now and in the future, we will be always sharing their mission when it comes to preservation when it comes to remembrance and educational and scientific project. But just to have this said, that we are an independent entity. You refer to the complicated matter of Poland’s history,  I also would like to stress that Poland as a state, was not a perpetrator and I think that historians would only agree, no matter where they come from,  Poland was occupied by Nazi Germany and attacked on September 1st, 1939, so it was, in fact, the first World War II victim and as a state that was not a perpetrator. The Polish population was, of course, an incredible victim of the policies of Nazi Germany, which does not mean that they were not poles among the society who contributed in some way to the crimes against the minorities, mainly the Jewish population, be it the Polish Jewish population, or Jews coming from other countries, which is a very painful part of the history of my country and myself, having had some family members who either were deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau, I am not Jewish, I was, was baptized and brought up in a Catholic tradition , to some extent I’m not religious myself, but I’m not I’m not Jewish. Still, I had family members, on both paternal and maternal side, who were either deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau and then to two other camps in in Nazi Germany and died there. And on maternal side also had family members who were deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau and killed at that camp which shows only how complicated history can be, how painful it is. However, this was never I think, if I made the decision to join the Auschwitz-Birkenau Foundation and this historical mission, it was a conscious decision, and 100% conscious decision, this was never part of my motivation why I did it. I always try to look at this place and its role in contemporary Poland. And as I said, there is unfortunately many more there is Treblinka, there is Bełżec, there is Majdanek, so many camps had been organized by the Nazis on occupied Poland that it’s been, even under communist times, and I’m not a great fan of communism certainly, even under communist times, there was a consensus that these sites have to be preserved because they are evidence of the crimes and even though the narrative was different during communist times, the focus was mainly on Polish victims, who are claimed to be victims of the fascist regime, because also Germany was divided. So, it was very difficult to attach all the blame on Germany.  So Western Germany was blamed, and Eastern Germany was an ally of communist Poland. But those places were beyond any doubt, since the beginning, since the end of World War II they were places of memory, and as such they were set up by survivors. And this was respected. This was a consensus since the 1940s, late 1940s. And this has not changed in Poland, so I think that the understanding here in this country, the nature and the role of these places, has not changed very much, the accents have changed and they have changed in a very good way, I believe, since communism fell, when the narrative has included the massive Jewish victims of extermination camps in occupied Poland, and this is a very good and responsible development. And I think that every scholar who has devoted time to this issue will agree that when you visit a memorial, which tells the history of the Jewish suffering, now in 2024, it’s a very different picture than when you were doing it in the 80s or 70s in communist Poland, when this most important and biggest part of this tragedy that happened in these places was omitted because of political reasons, being, of course, the suffering of the Jews of Europe and of Poland. So when we speak of victims, when you speak of perpetrators, there still is lots of pain and suffering, which I understand and, you know in my position we of course have to work with, we are working, and it’s an honor, with people from various backgrounds and the recent program, about digital education, which we introduced, and when we tried to open Auschwitz-Birkenau, and give access to Auschwitz-Birkenau for people from all over the world who will never be able to come physically, but now they can do it remotely. This has shown to me personally, that even now, eighty years after World War II it can be very painful and very difficult to build bridges between my nation and, for example, Jews from Israel. I am speaking about Jews from Israel, because the platform, this technology, has been established in very close cooperation with startups from Israel, Appsflyer in this case, who for the past three years have been partners with us and with the Office Memorial and on a daily basis. It started because of COVID and through Zoom, as we speak right now. Because of COVID we could not travel, we couldn’t see each other face to face so we used Zoom. And the past few years have been an incredibly emotional, from time to time, a very difficult journey, for me personally, because we were touching the most painful topics of our relations. Of course, many of my, and I hope I can call them, friends, for me certainly they have become friends from Israel. They have Polish roots, and for many of them it is a very painful history because their ancestors have been betrayed by my Polish neighbors, some of them are telling wonderful stories of courage and bravery, when their grandparents and great grandparents were saved by Poles. And it’s not a necessity but I think it’s a good thing to recall that whoever wanted to help Jews in Nazi occupied Poland was sentenced to death, and not only that person, but also their family. So, it’s easy to speak about bravery, particularly now, eighty years after World War II, I think no one wants to be, would like to be put in such a situation to have to decide, do I help these people who officially are branded as not human beings, risking my own life and the life of my family? Or do I not help these people? I certainly don’t want to be, will not want to be in that position… but it happened between 1939 and 1945, in many cases. And now, going back to this wonderful cooperation we’ve had for the past three years, I have discovered many open wounds. And I think that the only way to get out of this difficult history, which still is present, it is here, and one of the reasons why it’s important is that the number of visitors to Auschwitz-Birkenau is growing annually, on average, 5 to 7% annually, more people come to visit than the previous year. So it is lively it is here and people from all over the world find it important to confront themselves with this history and because of that, I think it’s an important individual story if you want to look into our own eyes and, and confront ourselves and ask ourselves difficult questions. Do we know anything about our ancestors here in Poland or other countries that were occupied? Have they done something righteous? Have they done something courageous? Have they saved someone or not? And how would I have behaved if I were put in their shoes?

John Torpey 

Sure, none of us really knows of course. It reminds me of Bertolt Brecht’s comment, which may or may not get exactly right, but it was something to the effect of: happy the country that has no need of heroes. And I think that’s the kind of situation you’re referring to. So, I want to ask about a kind of contemporary effect of Holocaust memory, let’s call it, and that of course, is the role of the understanding of Israel as a kind of haven from persecution for Jews and that, of course, is an important justification for some of what’s going on in Israel Palestine right now. And, as you probably know, in the United States, at least, and this is probably true elsewhere although I haven’t seen the data, but in the United States, at least younger people seem much less inclined to give Israel the kind of benefit of the doubt or the understanding that they might once have been expected to do in regard to its response to the Hamas’ attacks of October 7th. And I guess to me, this raises the question of the continued sort of significant salience, persuasiveness, if you like, of Holocaust memory, and I wonder what you would say, what are you seeing in terms of the way that particularly younger people are thinking about Auschwitz and the Holocaust, relative to contemporary events?

Wojciech Soczewica 

This is a… the questions are getting more and more difficult than yes. But that’s probably the nature of, of dealing with, with our past and with a painful past. Of course, I’ve seen during my most recent visit, to the United States, those reactions, I also hear and see from what is happening in Israel, how painful and difficult it is to deal with, with the past of Israel since the days of its establishment in 1948. And how difficult it is to deal with what has happened with history and how it’s interpreted today. I think the biggest challenge is, when politics enters history, and when politicians try to interpret for their needs history, then there is a very bright red light that I see on the horizon. And then what people I guess should do is to, to the back, maybe not relax, but take a history book into their hands and read what really had happened. This is true for you know, the history of the Holocaust, the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, the history of Israel since 1948, and also the conflict around Palestine and its fight for independence and the fate of its people of the Palestinians. I don’t think it’s a good idea to interpret contemporary politics from the perspective of history, especially when it’s extremely painful and difficult. I don’t think it’s the best idea to pick sides. And nowadays, I have the feeling, from what I read and from what I see on the news, that often, especially young people are put in a position where it’s expected from them to pick a side: Am I pro-Israel, or am I pro-Palestinian? I think that’s a false alternative. I don’t see any any reason why people should pick and then to mix this with the history of the Holocaust is absolutely crazy because the Holocaust has its place in an education, in our memories, 6 million victims slaughtered in ghettos, in extermination camps…they deserve their peace, and there is absolutely no reason why we should discuss the past through the lens of contemporary politics. Of course, the history of the Holocaust has had a major impact on the establishment of the State of Israel, it was not the only reason of course because the Jewish state was obviously in development for at least 50 years or even longer when we look at Theodor Herzl and his ideas since the end of the 19th century, but I think it’s the worst possible idea to look at the victims of the Holocaust from today’s perspective, they deserve their peace. 

We need to deal with this history, which is extremely difficult, and it’s the reason for the misinterpretation, misunderstandings between societies nowadays. And if we mix this with a contemporary topic, the relationship between Israel and the PLO and what is happening right now in Gaza, nothing good will come out of it. Now, when you say it can be interpreted as a justification for the crimes I don’t think that, when I know that this is the most terrible idea to justify any crimes with what had happened in the past. I would like to emphasize that, from my perspective, it is also very important to see the whole context and when we look at what is happening right now in Gaza, you need to look at October 7th, and the horrendous crimes that were perpetrated by a terrorist organization, Hamas, which probably has set up a tragic trap for Israel, I don’t think that there is any, there has been any good, better way for the State of Israel, Israeli Defense Forces and the society of Israel, following the events of October 7. Right now, we have a situation of war, which is tragic, with lots of unnecessary and civil victims, civilian victims, every individual civilian victim has to be mourned and it should not happen that people are dying. It is war, however. And I think that this is the perspective, the situation shouldn’t be looked upon, and certainly not mixed with what had happened in the past. And when Jews were not only incarcerated but also industrially killed on purpose, because they were Jews. There is one connection, and we will not escape this, this connection. You know, the Auschwitz-Birkenau Foundation was also confronted since the early days, following October 7th with this context, how do you see the crimes of Hamas? And how would you interpret that? Is it as bad as the Holocaust comparisons are? I think, a way for us humans to deal with horrific events, we try to maybe rationalize, by using numbers, and by drawing comparisons, maybe this is helpful for us to deal with horrific events. I’m not a psychologist, I am guessing. I do some reading, so I have my I have my ideas but I’m certainly not an expert. And of course, if you look at 6 million numbers and then more than 1200 people, you should not compare. But then if you look at a traumatized nation, which to some extent was built upon the crimes against its people, and that memory has always been part of the foundation of the society of Israel, well, then I do understand why the crimes of October 7th have immediately triggered this association. It has been the bloodiest attack on Israeli society since 1945, with the biggest number of victims and kidnapped people who are not freed until now. So I do, I do feel with the Israeli society, and when I speak to my friends, and I see how much they are suffering and how much they are missing, those kidnapped and friends, have family members who have been condemned, then I do have some understanding for the drama that is taking place and for a situation from which there is no simple answer and no simple solution. And I’m not even starting to talk about the peace process in the Middle East, you know, and a two-state solution and everything that is absolutely necessary and should be the topic of people who can make a difference to focus on and to work with. However, the situation is extremely complicated. I know that this is not a solution to anything, to any part of the drama we’re looking at. Some may say that it’s easy for me to be in that position. I don’t think it’s a comfortable position I’m in but I condemn every civil victim and I think that everything should be…all measures should be taken to prevent civilian Palestinians or Israelis to die in this conflict. That is obvious. But at the same time, I know the realities of war and you know, Poland, is next door to Ukraine, which has been invaded by Russia almost two years ago, and we see these victims from nearby. It’s a war of aggression and Ukraine has been invaded, just like Israel has been invaded and this is, I think, the right context, which is sometimes, maybe even often, totally right, upside down. And that’s something that needs to be emphasized that it was Israel who was attacked on October 7th, and it’s taking all the measures that can to protect its population.

John Torpey 

Well, I think this is a very sad situation, obviously. One can only hope that the leaders of the countries in question can find a way to reach a cessation of hostilities and to find a solution that entails security and safety and equal rights for all the people of this tortured land. But in any case, thanks so much for your comments and for your thoughtful responses to these questions. I want to thank Wojciech Soczewica of the Auschwitz-Birkenau foundation for his thoughts about the place of Auschwitz in human memory. I also want to thank Oswaldo Mena Aguilar for his technical assistance and to acknowledge Duncan Mackay for letting us use his song International Horizons as the theme music for the show. This is John Torpey, saying thanks for joining us and we look forward to having you with us for the next episode of International Horizons.