This week on International Horizons, we present RBI’s director John Torpey interview to David Gill, General Consul of Germany in New York to celebrate the 2023 Otto and Frank Walter Memorial Lecture. The conversation goes explaining the term “Zeitenwende” and what that entails for Germans, its history and how the military approach of Germany came to a new era. David Gill also discusses the effects of the historical division East-West in Germany in modern day politics, the position of Germany in the Russian War on Ukraine, the recent events in transatlantic relations and the importance of cooperation between US and Germany. Finally, Gill comments on his personal experiences and views of the United States as a diplomat as he is off to return to his motherland.

Transcript

John Torpey  00:00

Okay, thank you all for coming. Good evening.  My name is John Torpey, and I’m director of Ralph Bunche Institute for International Studies and the European Union Studies Center, which is part of the Ralph Bunche Institute. We are thrilled to present this year’s Otto and Fran Walter Memorial Lecture. Otto Walter was a longtime friend and donor to the European Union Studies Center whose generous bequest makes possible this important annual event. Though his life’s plans were destroyed by Nazi hatred, his life’s work was to build peace. He would be devastated that war has again broken out in Europe, and yet he would be thrilled that the country of his birth and the country of his adoption are this time working together to confront hatred.

John Torpey  00:47

We are also grateful to the DAAD Alumni Association of the United States for their co-sponsorship of this event. Let me now introduce our guest of honor. David Gill has been Consul General in New York since 2017, and before that he served as state secretary and chief of staff to German President Joachim Gauck. However, Consul General Gill has had a far from a conventional political career. He grew up in Herrnhut, Saxony, in former East Germany. He was denied a higher education by the communist regime for political reasons. Instead, he trained and worked as a plumber before pursuing theological studies in the Protestant Church in Berlin-Brandenburg. In 1990, he initially was the chairman of the Normannenstrasse Citizens’ Committee, which oversaw the dissolution of the Ministry of State Security at the Stasi headquarters, and he served as the secretary of the Special Committee of the East German Parliament for the dissolution of the Stasi.

John Torpey  02:10

After reunification, Gill became spokesman and head of the research division of the Federal Commissioner for the Stasi-Files, and studied law in Berlin and Philadelphia. He has held positions in the Federal Ministry of the Interior, at the Commissioner for Data Protection and Freedom of Information, and he also served as the Deputy Representative of the Council of the Protestant Church in Germany to the Federal Republic of Germany and the European Union. So, thanks very much for coming. It’s really great to have you. And for reasons that will become clear later in the evening, it’s probably the last time we’re going to have him here. So we’re happy he’s here, but sad that he’s going.

John Torpey  03:02

So let’s begin with the Ukraine war, which is, of course, unsettled Europe and the world with the largest land war in Europe in the post 1945 period. The war has led German Chancellor Olaf Schultz, as I’m sure most of you know, to announce a so-called “Zeitenwende” that is a major transformation in Germany’s military posture, compared to its previous post World War II stance. And I wonder if you could just explain for us what this somewhat strange word “Zeitenwende” really means?

David Gill  03:36

I can try. Certainly. But before I just want to say how happy I am to be back at the Graduate Center of CUNY. It was probably in my second or third month that I served as Consul General here that you invited me to come here, and we had a great morning and lunch, with the then director or president, I don’t know what the title is. And I was very impressed by what’s going on in this Graduate Center with all the different studies, scientists who work here, and scholars who work together. And so I’m really happy to be back and talk about what’s going on in Europe, in Germany, and in the world.

David Gill  04:26

“Zeitenwende” is a very German word, obviously. And if you want to translate it, then you would probably use the term “turning points,” which was used by Olaf Scholz, when he described what really changed: not only Europe, but the whole world. And not only to Ukraine, but [changed] Europe and the whole world and also Germany. So it was basically the end of an era. I don’t have to explain to you what happened then, as it was for the first time in Europe since the Second World War that a full fledged war broke out. An independent democratic country was invaded by its neighbor. And the shock was great everywhere. You remember, probably the day when it happened, and also what happened in Berlin afterwards was pretty dramatic. Even the setting was dramatic.

David Gill  05:41

The beginning of the war was February the 24th. And for the first time in more than 70 years of the existence of the Federal Republic of Germany, the parliament came together on a Sunday for a working session, because the chancellor wanted to give a declaration about what to do now and what’s at stake for Germany in this situation. And he gave a speech in which [he] described a dramatic change in many ways. First of all, he pledged a special fund of 100 billion euros to modernize the German military. And that was a big shift in Germany after the war; the military existed, but it was not an instrument [or] what German people saw as an instrument for politics. It was the first time that since the late 90s, the German military served in peacekeeping missions on the Balkans. This was a big step: that we would put 100 billion euros in a modernization program for our military was something unthinkable even two weeks before [the war]. And the reason for this was that everybody suddenly understood [that] there is a danger for our way of life, for our country, for democracy, for freedom for Europe. And so he was applauded for that in a very big way, even so it was hard particularly for the left parties to follow this way. But we learned a lot over the last year, over the last 14 months now, that a long war is going on. So this was this problem.

David Gill  08:05

A second major step and change was also in how we export weapons. Now, it was for good reason that Germany was very reluctant to export weapons in regions of crisis and war. Actually, it was legally not allowed to do so. And one and a half years ago, it wouldn’t have been a possibility to send weapons to Ukraine in the situation where it is now. So we changed our approach in this way and in a dramatic way. Also the type of weapons which were delivered changed over the time. We started with small deliveries [such as] armored cars. And now we deliver in battle tanks, but we wouldn’t have done it in the beginning. It’s also a development and understanding of how necessary it is to support Ukraine.

David Gill  09:26

But there is more of a turning point: also, we realized in Germany that dependency as we had until the beginning of the war, from Russia and energy questions, can’t work anymore. And we learned it the hard way, I have to say. Before the war, more than 50% of the oil used in Eastern Germany was imported from Russia, and 55% of the natural gas was imported from Russia. And it is amazing how the government together with the economy and the businesses in Germany managed to change this dependency. So, today, Germany doesn’t import oil and gas from Russia, and the economy is still running. So that’s a major shift and achievement that was possible. And that’s not only a change in politics and a change in the political discussion, there is also a change all over: the approach to the military, the approach to support Ukrainians, the openness to receive refugees; 1 million Ukrainian refugees in Germany. That’s not just discussed in political circles, that’s really embraced by the great majority of the Germans.

John Torpey  11:17

Well, that was the next question I wanted to ask you. Chancellor Scholz was rather hesitant about sending those tanks until the United States agreed that they were going to do that first. And then he had, I think, the cover he thought he needed in order to make that announcement. And then, recently during the Easter peace marches, one saw a continued kind of lack of enthusiasm for this kind of departure from the previous German posture. And I wonder, you say that the decision for this site and vendor has been embraced. But I wonder is that entirely the case?

David Gill  11:59

Well, I said, there was a good reason that Germany was reluctant for a long time to deliver weapons and military machinery in regions of crisis. And that’s why it took time to reach the level of support, military support, that we are able and willing to deliver to Ukraine. And of course, that’s not different here in the United States. Politicians always have to think about “what does it mean for our country when we support Ukraine? Do we become a part of this war? How do we endanger our own position towards Russia (not economically, but militarily)? And do we still have enough military means to defend ourselves?” So we can’t just give all the tanks and everything to the Ukrainians, and in the end, Germany is not able to defend itself. So that’s a question you have to consider. When you decide what we can and how can we help the Ukrainians militarily. But what is [the level of] support of these politics? So there is a broad support of these politics. I looked it up to the numbers. Regarding the military aid that Germany gives to Ukraine, 47% –almost half of the Germans — say this kind of support is appropriate. But even 16%, almost a fifth of the Germans, say it’s not enough, we should do more. And way less than a third of the German said [that] we should be more reluctant. We should do more in this field of military support. So there is still great support in the German public. Also [support] in this difficult question, how can we support Ukraine militarily?

John Torpey  14:27

So it sounds as though Scholz got the support…

David Gill  14:32

Yeah. And maybe he convinced people and they see what’s going on. And you always have to consider when you think about how people think about the war between Germany and Ukraine, there’s only Poland [between both countries]. Kyiv is as far from Berlin as Chicago is from New York. So It does mean something for your life. And it is a threat, or it is at least [a threat that is] close to your own home. And, in addition, 1 million refugees from Ukraine remind the Germans that there is a terrible, cruel war there and they can’t live at home, mostly women with their children as the fathers and brothers are fighting. And so this does something to the people and how they see that it is not some far war. We have nothing to do. It’s much closer, and we can make a difference when we support our Ukrainian friends.

John Torpey  15:56

Well, this sort of leads into the next question I wanted to ask you, which has to do with developments in Germany since basically 1989. I first got to Germany in 1981, shortly before General Jaruzelski in Poland announced martial law. And I looked at the map. And I thought that that’s as far from where I grew up as New York City, roughly. It was very close. Suddenly, this naive American kid was in the middle of Central Europe, and it was much more real. But in any case, we talked about your East German roots. And I ended up writing a dissertation about these developments. But the question basically is there were those who said in 1989 that it would take a generation, basically, for East and West Germany to grow together. And it’s been a difficult process. I wonder what you would say about where that process stands now?

David Gill  17:14

Well, I want to start [with this]: you talked about the martial law of Jaruzelski. I still remember very well, when it was introduced. I was, I think it was the second advent in 1981. I was 15 years old and I remember when I heard it on the radio, and it was the same weekend when Helmut Schmidt, the Chancellor of West Germany, visited East Germany. So there were a lot of things going on. And I grew up in a little town in Saxony, maybe 10 kilometers away from the Polish border. And until 1981, there were two countries that we could just travel to without any restrictions. And this was Poland and Czechoslovakia. Not Russia, not Yugoslavia, nothing like this, Poland and Czechoslovakia. And after martial law was introduced, this border was also closed.

David Gill  18:16

So, well, there is much achieved in East Germany and in the united Germany. Incredible things were made possible. If you look at the cities and towns in East Germany, the infrastructure, the wages, the material, security of the people, social security, and possibilities and opportunities for the people, much is achieved. And much was [due to] a great support from the West, [which is] the richer part [and forms] four-fifths of the country. I wouldn’t say it easily supported one fifth of the country (East). But that was a great benefit for East Germany and the other Eastern European countries.

David Gill  19:33

On the other hand, it was a dramatic change. It was exciting if you want more for the people in East Germany and West Germany. West Germans could live their life basically as they did before and they had even more opportunities. There were, I don’t know how many universities in East Germany we had, but maybe 15, 20, 25? And for West German scholars and teachers, it was also an opportunity to go there. Because in East Germany, people liked education because either they were excluded from higher education or in certain fields like history, law, political science, those were not the people we wanted to have in our universities anymore. There was also a need for new scholars, new teachers, new professors. And the East Germans also liked resources. We didn’t starve, we had a decent life. But there were resources, for instance, to buy property to renovate buildings, etc. They were not there. And so many from the West came and helped, but also owned, and now own the beautiful houses which we had renovated in the last 30 years.

David Gill  21:09

So what I want to say, there is still a difference in some ways. And there is a difference in some fields, and in some parts of the society, which is even perpetuated over the years, because the chances at the starting point of reunification were so different. And in East Germany, also, the first years were pretty hard for the average people who lost their jobs. So the whole economy broke down. It was very clear that the East German economy was not compatible in any way to the West’s economy, the West was easily able to serve the East. So no East German wanted to buy East German cars anymore. No East German wanted to have the products they never liked. They wanted to have what they could buy from the west, so all of this contributed to a devastating collapse of the economy, which made millions unemployed. And younger people, my generation, were able to go to West Germany to work. So when I had my class reunions, 80% came from Bavaria, or Battemberg or Hamburg, because there were the jobs. And those who were not mobile, the older ones, even if you were 40 to 70, were left behind. And realize that you change, at least for a period of five to 10 years, much smaller. So we say it’s a process, the younger generation is no longer so affected by this. But there are still differences.

John Torpey  23:25

Right. The pre-1989 past is now so far back for younger people that it’s just ancient history, so to speak. So I guess the question is have the two populations – insofar as they’re two – grown to have the same sort of consciousness of the country that they live in? I was struck by the fact that in the East, the opposition to German involvement in the war and to the war, in some ways, itself is stronger. So there are still regional differences in people’s outlooks about the world. So I wonder if you could comment on that.

David Gill  24:03

There is a stronger opposition against this military support of Ukraine. Or maybe even its stronger support of Russia. It’s not so much about the “Don’t think so much about Ukraine.” But the more “Yeah, it resonates more what Putin always said, I had to do this for my self defense, because if I wouldn’t march into Ukraine, then NATO would march into Russia,” which is nonsense. But it resonates at least in a certain percentage of the population, but it’s by far not a majority. And it’s maybe some percentage more than in the West. But I wouldn’t say that’s an East German phenomenon and only there. You also have conspiracy theorists in the West. And interestingly, all the leaders of the right wing AFD, in East Germany, almost all of them come from the West, but they find more followers in the East. For several reasons, it might be also the anti-Americanism, which exists also in the West, but for other reasons. But if you had learned for decades and throughout your youth and adulthood that America is the enemy and the imperialistic country, which wants to have influence all over the world, then it might be still in your head. But it’s not that the East is against the support of Ukraine or thinks that Russia does the right thing.

John Torpey  26:09

I didn’t mean to suggest that. That was clear. But so we were talking beforehand about how long you’ve been here, and you corrected me that it’s six years, not seven. But nonetheless, you’ve been here through six rather eventful years. And I’m now going to ask you to be forthcoming about your experience of American life during the previous administration. And, you know, there were a lot of questions raised about the relationship between our administration and for example, NATO, and with our European partners more generally, and lots of questions raised about the reliability of the United States as a partner, you’re part of the dip diplomatic structure of Germany. What would you say about that? How is that perceived? Has the upset kind of been overcome in the meantime, and the wound healed insofar as there’s a wound? How would you describe that?

David Gill  27:13

Well, when I came here in 2017, I experienced a country in two minds. Enthusiasm on the one hand, shocked on the other hand. And this was interesting to see; not so much in New York, New York is different from other parts of the country. But yes, it was interesting. It was not easy also for us as diplomats, to deal with a new situation we hadn’t experienced before, that suddenly, the close relationship and the transatlantic relationship was questioned or at least, not considered particularly necessary anymore.

David Gill  28:11

My colleagues in Washington experienced this much more than we did here in New York, of course, because they are at the national bilateral level, and it was something they never had experienced before; that they didn’t have partners in the departments and State Department, either. There were new appointees who were not interested in a transatlantic relationship, or there were no appointees in many posts, and they didn’t know whom to talk to. And, of course, the sickness. The [message that the] president of this country sent during his first years to the Allies was not helpful either. You remember the G7 Summit in Canada, where President Trump left early to meet the North Korean leader. That was the message: that is more important in the moment and to come together with my natural allies if you want. And how to deal with this? This was really difficult. And if you ask reliable partners, yes, I’m convinced the Americans are reliable partners. But we also have to learn that America is a very colorful country. And we can’t pick our partners in this country and we have to really try to build a network in all parts of the society and also in all parts of the political landscape. And that’s the teaching of this time. We have to invest and we can’t take the transatlantic and German-American relationship for granted; we have to work for that. And we sometimes explain to ourselves, but also to our American partners, why this relationship is so important. And in this way, the war in Ukraine even helps. I think many people realized, “yes, we are natural partners. And yes, we share the foundation of our society.” We might think in certain fields of politics very differently. But we have a foundation of democracy, the rule of law, freedom, which we can’t take for granted, not here, not there. And that’s why we have to stand together. And this is, I really would say, a positive outcome of the last 14 months, not only in politics, but also in society. At least when I talk about Germany, people realize “yes that is something we’re dispersed to fight for. And we have to defend that.”

John Torpey  31:28

Well, that’s interesting, what you say about connecting with all parts of the country, and it occurs to me that that’s a question that I have for what you do in your job? I mean, you’re based in New York, but there’s a big wide country out there, most of it far west of New York. And I wonder have you had a chance to travel around the country and get a sense of what life is like, elsewhere or not really?

David Gill  31:53

I mean, you don’t have to travel so far to see how different this country is. When you go 70 miles west to Delaware Water Gap in this region, and look at people who live there, and what their problems are, or Pennsylvania, rural Pennsylvania. So my district here is New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, which is a small part of the US, but compared to Germany, it’s two-thirds of Germany and half of the population of Germany. And that’s why, like this country also so much, it’s such a colorful and diverse country, not only if you look at the people, but also the landscape, the mentality, etc. And, of course, I didn’t stay in my district alone. No, [I stayed] with my family, we traveled to the west, we just came back two weeks ago from the Carolinas and Tennessee. And it’s wonderful to see this diversity, and also to see the problems and that you can have different approaches to certain fields of politics. [For example] standards of convictions when you live in Arizona or New York, even when you talk about gun law. Yeah, when you travel in these wide fields, you can understand that there, the gun plays a different role than here in New York. What is the teaching out of it? And what should be the politics? That’s another question. But you can understand that people in Arizona or in the Death Valley think differently about life and what’s necessary in life than people in New York City. And yeah, it’s great.

John Torpey  33:59

Well, I think you’re lucky, of course, to have had that opportunity. But I’m sort of curious as you are reaching the end of your tenure here in New York, what will you remember most? What will you happily leave in the rearview mirror? What stays with you and what would you just not necessarily have to do anymore.

David Gill  34:24

So one thing really is this great diversity of this country, and it’s people that I will miss. My wife, Sheila, is American. And when we met 30 years ago, as she used to live in New York, — she’s sitting there if you ask my wife — and when she came to Berlin, I remember that when she came to Berlin in 1995 (Berlin changed over the years also) but she was shocked how white and uniform Berlin and Germany are compared with New York City. So that’s wonderful. I also like the openness of this country. And yes, that’s something I really will miss. I have to say, I hope it will change, but for instance the mass shooting of the last weeks, and that’s something that I can’t  understand. It’s also a question of the guns in this country. And I don’t know how and if the country is able to find a way out of this. And I hope so. That is something that really concerns me particularly now in the last days when you [witness] every day another case. I’m also worried.

John Torpey  36:09

Reminds me of when I was doing the research for my dissertation I told you about. I was interviewing a woman named Ulrika Poppe, whose name you will recognize. And she was one of the most courageous opponents I would say of the East German regime, a relatively petite woman, but sort of a fireplug kind of a tough character in a good way. But she told me she had been invited to a conference in Detroit and she was afraid to go because all she ever heard about the United States was mass shootings.

John Torpey  36:47

Okay, thank you all for coming. I just want to say thanks so much to Consul General David Gill, for taking time out of his busy schedule. And I know it’s a busy schedule for joining us this evening and the audience here at the Graduate Center and via Zoom for taking part in the 2023 Otto and Fran Walter Memorial Lecture. A video of this event will be posted to the Graduate Center’s YouTube channel, and the audio will be uploaded as an episode of the Ralph Bunche Institute’s podcast which is called International Horizons and can be found wherever podcasts can be found: Spotify, I’ve forgotten exactly. But in any case, I’m sure you’ll find it. So thank you all for coming and please thank David Gill.