Episode Fourteen of the Ralph Bunche Institute for International Studies’ new podcast, International Horizons, is out now.

For Episode Fourteen, John Torpey, Ralph Bunche Institute Director, has a discussion with Susan Neiman, Director of the Einstein Forum in Berlin, the global movement towards coming to terms with the history of racial oppression, how a nation’s history affects the way that this plays out, and where society can go from here. 

You can listen to it on iTunes here, on Spotify here, or on Soundcloud below.

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Ralph Bunche Institute · Coming to Terms with the History of Racial Domination

Transcript:

John Torpey  0:03 

Hi, my name is John Torpey, and I’m director of the Ralph Bunche Institute for International Studies at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. Welcome to International Horizons, a podcast of the Ralph Bunche Institute, that addresses a range of issues of significance around the world. Today’s topic is Coming to Terms with the History of Racial Domination. We’re fortunate to have with us today and distinguished analyst of the problem of coming to terms with the racist past, Dr. Susan Neiman, Director of the Einstein Forum, a prominent think tank in Berlin. Susan Neiman recently published a book on this subject, titled Learning from the Germans: Race and the Memory of Evil, which compares how the Germans have come to terms with the Nazi pas with the way Americans have dealt with slavery and its aftermath. Before assuming the role of Director of the Einstein Forum, she taught philosophy at Yale and Tel Aviv University. Thank you so much for joining us today for today’s conversation on International Horizons, Susan Neiman.

Susan Neiman  1:13 

Glad to be here.

John Torpey  1:15 

Great to have you. So, let’s launch right into this discussion, which is obviously, you know, of concern to people around the world right now. The appalling killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis on Memorial Day weekend set off an enormous wave of unrest across the United States and beyond concerning the long history of racial oppression in America. In your recent book, Learning from the Germans, you argue that the Germans have in many ways done better than we in the United States have done to work through the past, or what the Germans call the Vergangenheitsbewältigung. Have the protests succeeded in getting us to work through our racist past more successfully?

Susan Neiman  2:00 

Not by themselves. But what gives me enormous hope and excitement is the way that people are thinking, seriously thinking, about how to go on from here. And that ranges from things like economic boycotts of Facebook or advertisers on Fox, to cultural institutions getting together. I spoke last week to 100 members of the American Association of Art Museum Directors. And I was just so impressed by the way they were thinking forward. What can we do with our museums? What can we do with our collections? How do we keep up this momentum? How do we stop it from being, you know, one more demonstration that peters out? And, as I’m sure you know, there are those discussions taking place all over the United States, but not just the United States. And that’s what’s so exciting. It is going on all over the world, people are pretty well informed about Black Lives Matter in the States and showing their solidarity, but they are also saying, ‘and now it’s time for us to look at our racist history’.

You know, when I published this book last fall, it came out in English in England and the States, and I went to London for some book interviews. And it was extraordinary how few people fought this. This is my favorite story: I, on two different talk shows, I was asked ‘this has nothing to do with us, Hitler wanted world domination.’ And fortunately, I was quick enough to think to reply. I thought the sun never set on the British Empire. You know, so then I got to say it twice. And the next time I was asked that question, um, but it didn’t take. Now in Britain, I mean, it’s not just demonstrations. It’s also you see the same process going on in Britain and Belgium and Holland. France is slowly doing something. Australia is doing things. I mean, it’s just I talked last week to Noam Chomsky, who said it’s the most dangerous time in human history. But he also said in all his 91 years, he had never seen such an outpouring of international solidarity. And, yeah, I think we’re finally in the middle of a process that needed to happen earlier. I think it began in the States, really with President Obama’s eulogy for the nine churchgoers in Charleston. And that was the first time that people started talking seriously about taking down Confederate symbols. And that was what actually moved me to write this book, because I’ve been living in Berlin for a very long time and been impressed, though not thoroughly impressed. I must very quickly say, I don’t think the Germans got it all right. They were slow. They were reluctant. It was really a complicated story. And I try and tell that story in the first third of the book, but I think they did better than any other nation. And so, I felt I had something to contribute to what looked to me in 2015 like the beginning of American Vergangenheitsbewältigung, working off the past. And then of course, things got complicated as we know, but honestly, I think of that video of that poor little daughter of George Floyd saying ‘my daddy changed the world’. And honestly, I think she’s right.

John Torpey  6:12 

I’m inclined to agree. And I think this is actually one of the fascinating aspects of this current moment, that there is a way in which, despite much loss of international kind of prestige and respect for the United States, there is this weird way in which we are leading the world in a certain sense. In perhaps negative ways initially, but the United States has, in some way, become this kind of beacon for the rest of the world to come to terms with some of its own experiences.

Susan Neiman  6:49 

Americans are happy when I say listen, the Brits are behind you, the Dutch are behind.

John Torpey  6:54 

Right, right. But I’m struck by this in part because there was a time during the civil rights movement when this was also true, when people saying ‘We Shall Overcome’ in the streets of Eastern Europe when they saying ‘We Shall Overcome’ in South Africa. And, you know, it’s a very strange kind of thing, given what else is going on in the United States right now, we’re also a world leader in coronavirus infections, right. And so, you know, there’s just this way in which the United States, in certain ways continues to lead in both good and bad ways. But maybe you could talk a little bit more about, you know, how you see this playing out internationally. I mean, we’ll get to the United States context, but is this, you know, the sort of thing that is going to have legs in Britain or in Germany or in other places that you’ve been paying attention to?

Susan Neiman  7:56 

Oh, yeah, sure, looks like it and I mean, once again, about your analogy to the civil rights movement, one of the things that’s made me hopeful are the voices of civil rights veterans saying there were never so many white people involved. You know, in the civil rights movement there were, I’m proud to say my mother was one of them, but, you know, the numbers weren’t like they are now. And you also get black voices of people who have lately been extremely pessimistic, like Ta-Nehisi Coates, saying, you know, sort of tending towards what’s now called Afro pessimism, saying you now I’m actually feeling hopeful.

So yeah, what’s going on in in Europe, which is the place that I have the most contact with. So I’ve done some interviews with Australia where there seems to be a lot of movement in, you know, dealing with their crimes against indigenous peoples with more than apology. I mean, one prime minister, whose name I now forget, didn’t officially apologize, but that was a while ago and they didn’t do much else. You know, once again, British artists, are I’ve done BBC, podcasts or broadcasts where they’ve brought artists and museum directors. So now what do we do with the statues? And okay, we threw Colston into the harbor. What do we do with Churchill? And also saying, which I think is so important, black and British and colonial history must be taught at every level in school, because it’s usually not.

I’m really not a fan of Black History Month. I’m not even a fan of women’s studies, or Afro-American Studies departments, although I do understand the reasons for their existence. But I think everyone who studies history should be reading, you know, Douglas and Dubois. And everybody who reads literature should be reading Morrison and George Eliot. And I don’t want people to be ghettoized by either gender or race. But they are demanding that in Britain, they’re also talking about reparations.

It’s the Dutch. I mean, I feel like I sound a little bit like I’m bragging, but I did write something for some Dutch papers about what I think thought Holland needed to do explicitly, because I’m fairly often in Holland although I don’t speak Dutch. So I’m not, you know, completely, you know, I don’t really know what’s going on in that culture, but I know something. And apparently there’s now a whole debate we should do what Susan Emmons? I’m I mean, one of the things I’m I’ve long been trying to talk people out of the concept tolerance, which the, the, the Dutch are very, very proud of. Tolerance was a concept, as I’m sure you know, John, that was invented during the religious wars of the 17th century. And it was meant to apply to different religious opinions. It was not meant to apply to ethnic groups. And the idea of saying, well, we’re being more tolerant. Who wants to be tolerated? You don’t want to be tolerated, you want to be respected. You want people to be curious about you, but you tolerate things that you can’t do anything about, like noise from the neighbor’s apartment or something, you know. So anyway, I wrote a piece about that, among other things.

Susan Neiman  12:02 

And, you know, you have people saying, we need to change the school culture, we need to change the discussion culture. In Germany. It’s really quite interesting. What we now have is Afro German. Of course, they’re not nearly as many Afro Germans as there are African Americans, I should look up the number. It’s not that large because, you know, for the obvious historical reasons, but you have Afro Germans saying, It’s not enough to hate the Nazis and be nice to the Jews to get rid of racism. We need to think about further aspects of racism and it is true that people of color in Germany while they don’t suffer the kind of violence by and large although it has happened and even recently they’re not usually subject to the kind of violence that people of color in the states are. Partly, because we have better gun laws. But, but there’s certainly a lot of discrimination and people talking about that now. They’re talking about dealing with German colonialism, issue paying reparations to the Herero, which was a real genocide in in Namibia, which was a German colony. They’re talking about what to do about the colonial objects in our museum or colonialized objects – I guess is what one should call them – pieces that were stolen or were bought for ridiculous amounts of money under pressure. So, all that is going on at a at a really serious level. It’s not just you know, people were very, some people who are cynical at the beginning said, ‘Oh, everybody’s been cooped up because of locked down. So now they’re happy to have a moral reason to go out in the streets’. That’s a cynical reading of what happened, particularly given that what you what I’m now seeing in all of the places that I can follow, is a real serious discussion of, you know, demonstrations were important now what? And I think it’s wonderful.

John Torpey  14:30 

Right? It’s a fascinating moment and important moment, no question about it. And, as you already indicated, I mean, one of the ways in which this has played out in particularly in the United States over also in Britain, and perhaps elsewhere that I’m not aware of, has to do with, you know, the memorialization of the past in the form of statues and other installations of that kind. And I mean, one of the points you make in your book and I guess in your brief Atlantic article that came out in the fall was that, as compared to the United States, there’s something, you know, positive that the Germans did, because there simply are no, you know, statues of memorials to Nazi heroes are soldiers or anything like that.

Susan Neiman  15:21 

By the way, of course, there was a letter to the editor of the Atlantic saying there is one in my little town. And what was interesting is then I, I did some further research, there are a couple of ones that are very out of the way, which is why neither I nor any of the people working on this subject in Germany, pay attention to them. So in one or two places, there is still a memorial but it’s, you know, two soldiers who fell, but it would be completely out of the question to memorialize the Nazis, certainly in any, you know, except for these couple of things that they forgot to take down in any way. And instead what you have are memorials to the victims. You have a wonderful one, it’s actually my favorite memorial in Berlin, are to the soldiers of the Red Army who fell in the battle for Berlin to liberate Berlin. You know, you have various monuments and people who did different kinds of resistance, but it wouldn’t occur to anybody to put up a or to keep up a memorial to the Nazis. None.

John Torpey  16:52 

Right. So, part of what’s fascinating it seems to me about the United States situation is precisely that, you know, people are waking up to the idea that there’s something strange about memorials to people who were traitors to the country that indeed won the war. And so had they not won the war would have looked different, surely. But basically, there are, you know, all these memorials to Robert E. Lee and other figures of the Confederacy who were, you know, both traitors, and, you know, defending a culture a society that was based on slavery. I mean, not really a lot of debate about that anymore. Although there was debate about what the Civil War was really about for a long time. I don’t think that debate really continues in any serious way. So it’s a little strange that, you know, there were these memorials and of course, they’re all these military bases, also named traitorous, you know, military figures. And I guess in some ways, it’s the military bases that strike me is more eye opening that is, you know, I’II think ‘this is kind of odd that the military of our country has some of these places that are named for people who represented, you know, a renegade section of the country’. And so there’s a way in which it seems to me these discussions and debates are opening up a whole new understanding of American history. So I wonder if you could say a little bit about that.

Susan Neiman  18:27 

Absolutely. And before 2015 I did not know when those memorials were built and I grew up in the segregated south and occasionally went to Stone Mountain for a treat with the largest Confederate memorial in the world. We did not go to Stone Mountain for that, we went to Stone Mountain because they had a great amusement park and occasionally, you know, we would go there, but I was never told and I’m not even sure that my mother, who was a civil rights activist, knew when those memorials were put up. They were put up not to honor the fallen fathers and sons. They were put up much, much later in two different waves. One, starting in the 1890s, as you know, reconstruction had ended and white supremacy was being violently reasserted. And then once again in the late 50s, and 60s as the civil rights movement was taking off. So, I have gotten a history lesson in the last five years, and I know the rest of the country has to and that’s one very good thing. Hillary Clinton, whatever you think of her, is an educated woman, she confused Reconstruction and Jim Crow in an interview in 2016, which I think is extraordinary and it’s extraordinary comment on this 90 years. Basically, it’s a black hole in our history between the end of the Civil War and the beginning of the civil rights movement. We just, it was just suppressed. So, I mean, that’s one thing that I think is wonderful about the monuments debate.

The point, though, that I have been trying to make in my writing is this whole complaint, which you also get in England as well, ‘you’re taking away our history.’ That’s it, you know, I’m sorry, you memorialize every bit of your history. You build monuments to the men and women who have embodied values that you want your community to honor. Monuments are about values, and my hope is that through these discussions that we’re having that first of all, people really are becoming aware of American history in ways that we weren’t before. But secondly, that communities will get together and discuss ‘okay, so what are the values that we want represented? Who should be the heroes that we want to honor?’ Bryan Stevenson said something to me when I interviewed him for my book. Bryan is really basically my hero, as the person who has, you know, so beautifully and explicitly drawn the direct connection between contemporary violence towards black people and our ignorance of our history. And he said, you know, ‘the white people in the South who opposed lynching, and you don’t know their names, and, you know, those names need to be remembered and honored and memorialized, and of course, there are many, many others’. But I’m hoping that you know, these discussions will be taking place and get us you know, to reflect about both our history and our values.

John Torpey  22:06 

Right. And I mean, this debate has, you know, gone very far, it seems to me that is to say it’s not just kind of challenging the Confederacy, and memorialization of the Confederacy as a kind of noble lost cause. But it’s even gone to the point of, you know, saying that people like Thomas Jefferson, the founding fathers basically, are part of this problem. And, you know, obviously, many of them were slaveholders, including Thomas Jefferson, one of his lineal descendants made an argument in the op ed page Times recently that the Jefferson Memorial should be dismantled. So, we’re really talking about when you talk about the values that these things represent, we’re talking about the foundational value or the value of the founding of the country. And so it’s beyond just traders and renegades. And it’s really about the essence of the country. And I wonder whether you could say, you know, whether the country in a certain sense, has a leg to stand on, I mean, so often seen as, you know, this notion of merit American exceptionalism as representing, you know, democracy and freedom and these kind of arguable values, but, you know, this critique and this movement are sort of showing that all of that is very problematic. So how would you speak about that?

Susan Neiman  23:41 

Sure. I think fundamental American problem is that we were unlike other countries, which mostly developed, if you like, accidentally. This tribe was wandering around and decided there was a nice harbor or river or place to settle and then they constructed some political structures and that was France or Germany and various other places. America claim to be founded on a set of ideals. That’s American exceptionalism. The problem is it violated those ideals from its very inception. So, what do we do about that now that more and more people are realizing that? I mean, the great thing that I sometimes tell Germans who don’t have this, Americans do have this concept of the other America, that is of people who, from the beginning, fought to make America actually realize the ideas and ideals it proclaimed. And that goes back to Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau. A lot of people don’t know I only found it out fairly recently, that it’s thanks to Emerson and Thoreau that John Brown went down in history not as a crazed terrorist but as a freedom fighter. And they not only wrote and spoke about him, they actually helped his co-conspirators escape illegally to Canada. So we have people like that in our history. We have Frederick Douglass in our history, we have Paul Robeson. And we have actually a long number of African Americans who you might think, would be tempted under the given the history to, you know, support a back to Africa movement. And instead, many African Americans have been in the forefront of saying, ‘No, this is my country, and I’m going to make it live up to its ideals’, but of course, there have been a lot of white people too. And, you know, so we have a tradition that we can draw on, you know, whether it’s Woody Guthrie, or Paul Robson, or Ralph Waldo Emerson, etc, etc, etc, Sojourner Truth. You name them. It’s a big tradition.

Susan Neiman  26:01 

I think that tradition needs to come much more to the fore than it has. The second question is what do we do with our very flawed Founding Fathers? I liked Lucian Truscott’s op ed. I’ve read his work before and I think he’s very smart and very, you know, good. And I like the idea that the Jefferson Memorial should be replaced with a memorial to Harriet Tubman. I, frankly, I think that’s a good idea. But he said don’t replace Monticello now, um, I was only at Monticello several years ago, and I don’t know what they’re doing now. But I think what they’ve done it on shallow in the last 10 years, and I think I gather they’re doing more of it. Now if you can, if I can judge by their website, they don’t really good example of contextualization. So you can take a tour of Jefferson’s gorgeous house, I think that house represents, you know, the best of the American and the European enlightenment. And you hear about his life. And then they’ve had archaeologists excavating the slave cabins and you can take a tour from the perspective of the people he enslaved. I think the only thing that’s perhaps wrong with it is that you can choose not to take both tours. I think you shouldn’t be forced to take both tours. And the tour that I went on of the cabins of enslaved people was really well done. It really worked. That they did it in the second person. They said, ‘Well, suppose you were a slave on this plantation. You would, you’d be allowed to marry but you could maybe visit your spouse every Sunday or maybe every second Sunday’. I mean, they made it very vivid and very present. And that seems to me the kind of thing that one could do. I mean, look, it’s very, very hard to find a hero with no feet of clay. And we need heroes that is we need examples of people who do honor all, you know, values that we want to be kept. And let’s not forget with all of the, you know, awful hypocrisy we know about Jefferson now. He did write late in his life about slavery, “I tremble when I think that God is just” so you know, he knew that what he was doing was wrong. And I think that one could show the founding fathers, one could honor them for the good they did and show the wrong they did, and once again, my plea is to think about the other America and to remind us, of those people.

Susan Neiman  29:26 

One of my great heroes is Paul Robeson and because of his socialism. Apparently, he was not a member of the Communist Party. I was just listening to his HUAC testimony this morning – it’s glorious. But he was certainly a committed socialist and probably the most famous black man in the world throughout, you know, in the middle of the 20th century. And unfortunately, he’s been virtually erased from American history, although his wonderful ballad for Americans, which is about as patriotic as you can possibly get. I don’t know if you know that song. I used to hear it as a child because my parents played it, but I don’t even know it’s being sung by a black man, much less Paul Robeson, but that song was played in 1940 at the Democratic, Republican, and Communist Party national conventions, so you know, there are people who we have forgotten who need to be, you know, remembered and honored. But I think we can, I think we can do that.

John Torpey  30:25 

Right. I mean, I myself just before the coronavirus outbreak took place, I happened to be in Nashville and took a tour of a plantation there and you know, was expecting Southern Belles and all that kind of thing. And the fact is, it was you could get that kind of tour, but the tour that I chose was much more of the kind that you were describing where it was really told primarily from the point of view of the slaves and the ways and ways in which they were written out in the story and what they had actually done. How the whole thing really depended on their work. It was quite, quite impressive, I have to say. So probably what’s happening now is in some ways, you know, the product of those kinds of changes that that, you know, perhaps relatively out of the way places that this was given by a woman who was a school teacher, a history teacher, I think maybe in high school who was just terrific, incredibly knowledgeable and, and quite, you know, sensitive to the inadequacies of the ways in which this kind of story had been told in the past. And that was clearly something the people who worked at this plantation and did these tours had thought about a lot and had a lot to say about so I was I was very, very sort of optimistic after I came out of that. I no idea what was happening.

Susan Neiman  31:54 

So, the last time I was sort of looking for material In the deep South was three years ago, and at least officially, the only the only plantation like that was in Louisiana. And it got good, deservedly good press. But I did not know there was one in Nashville. It may be recently that they’re doing that, but wonderful.

John Torpey  32:28 

Right. So maybe some last thoughts about what you think might come of all this, particularly in the United States. I mean, I, as I read your book, I was so interested to know about the William Winter Institute for Racial Reconciliation, which I had never heard of before and where you spent a lot of time doing research and talking to people about, you know, the legacy of the past in Mississippi, which is, obviously, you know, he stayed in any of these discussions and now finally making some changes to its flag.

John Torpey  33:10 

Yeah, extraordinary thing.

Susan Neiman  33:14 

Essentially if you followed the debates over the Mississippi flag, which I did, and I did not think it would happen this quickly. Boy.

John Torpey  33:20 

Right in order to I think have NASCAR come to the defense of a black driver who had decided that you know, that this was no longer an acceptable symbol to be flying at NASCAR races. Now, apparently, I think today’s paper shows that that’s not necessarily actually stopped. But nonetheless, officially, NASCAR has said, you know, no more of this. So, you know, there do seem to be really real steps that are being taken towards dismantling this past this understanding of the past and, you know, beginning to recognize eyes that a lot of the people, the people who are dying to answer the police are doing so because of a long history of slavery and it’s and its aftermath in the United States. So, I just wonder what else you think might happen that, you know, might come out of these protests and demonstrations.

Susan Neiman  34:21 

So here’s something that I happen to know because one of my daughters works in the film industry in LA. She’s a scriptwriter, before you can actually pay your rent from script writing, you need another job. So her main job is working, maybe I shouldn’t say which, but shooting for very large film production company. That of course gets hundreds of scripts and books a day and, you know, needs them contracted out to vet scripts. And but in addition to vetting for quality, she was told to vet for racism and sexism. And she just got a directive to be to set you know, you’ve been your treatments have been great, um, go a little harder, make sure there’s no trace of racism or sexism. And I think that’s quite wonderful because Hollywood has a lot to answer for, both in its depiction of the Confederacy. And it wasn’t just gone with the wind and Birth of a Nation. There were hundreds of films made glorifying the Confederacy, everybody wants to rebel. So it was a once to be a rebel. So there were way more films, glorifying the Confederacy, not to speak of what Hollywood did to our understanding of Native Americans and the so called winning of the West. So Hollywood, you know, I think popular culture is immensely important. But Hollywood is cleaning up its act and they’re serious about it and that’s terribly important.

Susan Neiman  36:06 

I mean, if I can say a word about the Germans and what I think is the general message we can learn from them. A lot of you know, usually outside of Germany and I think it’s mostly because people know the famous iconic photo of Willy Brandt kneeling at the Warsaw Ghetto Memorial if they know anything about post war Germany, what they don’t find out first of all, is Brandt had nothing personally to atone for; he was a Social Democrat. He left the country as soon as the Nazis took power, but he felt as the leader of the nation, he should make a gesture of atonement. But what they especially don’t know is that most of the country hated the fact that he did it. And he was very quickly out of office, but there was another excuse but I that had a lot to do with it. So people did not want him kneeling in front of those. And instead, this was a real epiphany that helped me when I was writing the book. This is what the West Germans, not the eastern ones, but what the western sounded like in a couple of decades after the war: ‘They burned our cities to ashes or men were wounded or in POW camps, if they were alive, or women were violated or children were hungry, just barely alive. I hope you catch the reference. And on top of all that the Damn Yankees tried to tell us that the war was all our fault’. And that when I realized they sounded exactly like the defenders of the lost cause that was a revelation to me, because the West Germans really did see themselves as the worst victims of the war. Until about 40 years after it was over.

And what I conclude from that is that’s really natural. We all want to see ourselves as heroes or our people as heroes, our nation is heroic. And when that doesn’t work out, we decide, well, they were victims of history. So, it’s easy to see yourself as a victim. And that’s just a normal movement that people make wasn’t normal until the Germans did it was to say, you know, yeah, there we were victims. We were wounded. But actually, we wounded a lot more other people. And it was our fault. And that movement is what the Germans set a precedent in. And that’s the movement that Americans need to do with this complex of things called Vergangenheitsbewältigung, working off the past, which is not a one shot deal. Reparations don’t do it. That’s what I’d know or thought, you need re-education, you need popular culture, you need to change the physical geography of our cities and streets and public monuments and exhibits, all of those things have to happen. They have to go on for a long time, they may have to go on for many generations. But the other lesson that the Germans gave us, is, you can go through this process, it can be pretty painful, and you come out better on the other side. And I know you spent quite a bit of time in Germany yourself. I got here for the first time in 1982. And there is just no question that Germany is a freer, more open, stronger and happier place than it was before it went through this process or at the very beginning of it.

And that is my hope for America. I’m still an American; you know, I was raised there. And I, I’ve still more involved many ways in the American debates than I am in any other, I deeply care that this country, you know, go through this process successfully. And I don’t see why it can’t happen since I think we’ve absolutely begun.

John Torpey 40:25

Well, I couldn’t agree more, and I think your book is going to help promote these discussions and that we’re going to move forward because of these massive uprisings in the streets, not just in the US but around the world as a whole. So thank you for taking the time to talk to us today.

That’s it for today’s episode of International Horizons. I’d like to thank Susan Neiman of the Einstein Forum in Berlin sharing her insights about coming to terms with the past in the United States and Germany and the world. I also want to thank Hristo Voynov for helping out in the technological side. This is John Torpey of the Ralph Bunche Institute for International Studies, saying see you next time on International Horizons.